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Following up on the discussion at Forum:Should We Leave Wikia, it's become clear that at least some of us are interested in leaving the Wikia network and finding a new home. Now it's time to decide where we should go. Post any ideas, be they established projects or simply hosting services where we can make a fresh start. List any questions you would like answered by those projects existing staff, and I'll see if I can't get them answered.

Due to Darth Hater's partnership with the Curse network, the project hosted on that network, WikiSWTOR, is an obvious possibility. As such, when I decided that I would be seeking a new wiki home, I initiated contact with them. Wynthyst and Varga, the current project leads, have assured me we would be welcome additions to their community. The project operates under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) content license. There is interest in supporting content from both KotOR games, as well as the relevant EU information, and they approve of the idea to make source citation more prevalent throughout the project.

Since much of the Curse project's current articles are copied directly from the game's home page, I asked about the reasons for this. Wynthyst is a Curse employee, and in June was tasked with creating the skeleton for the project in the hopes that a community would grow up around it and flesh things out. That being said, I was informed there would be no problem with us taking it upon ourselves to rewrite those articles in our own words.

WikiSWTOR is just a single option for us to consider. I look forward to everyone's feedback on this. -- Heaven's Agent 16:13, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

I'm just wondering what leeway there is for us to put our stamp on the project. Their are a number of things I don't like and would want to change if we did decide to move there, and it be preferable if we could come to an arrangement in which acknowledged that the bulk (speculative) of this Wiki was merging with WikiSwtor rather than it being a number of our contributors moving their and just "taking over" - which could cause annoyance to the few contributors they have, as we are still the larger project (by articles and no of contributors). There is also the question of whether the admin/project staff here would be granted administrative status there. Alexsau1991 (talk page) 20px 16:44, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

I'll be sure to ask any questions you might have, Alexsau. What aspects would you like to see changed? Some of them may be the result of nothing more than insufficient contributors or time.
I'll check into the administrative staff thing; they're actively looking for staff, but they've specifically asked for individuals that are active within that project's community. I could easily see them wanting use to come over, work on things for a time, and only then promote us to a leadership capacity. That said, I might be surprised, so it's best to ask. -- Heaven's Agent 16:58, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

Changed; primarily some of those layouts they've got - such as this on the Jedi Shadow article, it just doesn't look like a wiki article. I would also like to see ashetic changes, first and foremostly getting rid of that god-awful logo; also things such having an image in the background etc. I'll give it some further thought. It's still under consideration and we need to hear what others think.

Individual article layout is something that they've expressed a willingness to change. In order to get a general feel for their project, and to give them an opportunity to get a feel for our style, I've actually started such a redesign on their Alderaan article, and it has met with approval thus far. I'll be designing a new layout entirely for the article in a Sandbox area shortly, and see how they feel about it.
I'll ask about the logo and a possible background image of some sort. I imagine their logo, like ours, is simply a placeholder until someone designs something a little more polished and pleasing to the eye.

Although i was initially against leaving, the evidence has slowly mounted against Wikia. While it would be nice to stay here, I will follow what the bulk of people will do. I would hate for us to be split up, but it is probably going to happen. I also agree that swtorwiki is our best bet for a new home. My biggest issue with the wiki is more of a personal one, as the new layout will take some getting use to. I think it would also be nice if the admins here, moved over there and were given admin privileges. Just a thought. Scimatt16 20:45, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

Greetings. I thought I would come to you to answer directly the questions you have posted regarding our project. As I indicated to Heaven's Agent, all SWTOR players are welcome to contribute to our wiki. No admins will be automatically promoted, as promotions are granted based on several criteria, need, general commitment level to the project, overall knowledge of MediaWiki, and demonstrated interaction with the community. I forsee our traffic increasing as DarthHater is more fully integrated, and as the game development proceeds and again with release of the game. So a need for additional admins is pretty much a given, the rest would be up to each individual. Also, Varga will remain the lead community admin and all promotions would be a mutual decision. I was assigned to WikiSWTOR after the original community abandoned it (several of whom came here I believe) so I have little knowledge of the founding principles but I do have a solid knowledge of MediaWiki structure and protocol as well as community management. As indicated I was assigned the task of cleaning up and updating it in their absence. As the Curse Wiki Team member assigned to the project, I will continue to oversee things, but ultimately, how the wiki develops will be up to the community in most areas. Wikis are unlike static websites in that they grow and change as the community decides, however, at this time I would be against a complete overhaul of the article structure though discussion is always welcome and general consensus would overrule any personal preference I may have. I would also like to address the "site design and logo" issue directly. Currently, the Darth Hater site is being redesigned and recoded to fit the Curse structure. Once that is completed, it is most likely that the wiki skin and logo will be redesigned to match as to more fully integrate the two sites. This will NOT be a community decision, but a Curse one, though community feedback will be welcomed. I have a solid reputation of working with the communities I support rather than against them, so I am generally very open to ideas and suggestions. Please feel free to contact me directly on my WikiSWTOR talk page if you have further questions. -- Wynthyst talk 00:43, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

I actually laughed out loud when Wyhthyst said that the wiki skin and logo would be a Curse decision but they will listen to feedback from the community. That is the exact same thing that Wikia says, but does it happen? No.
I guess I am being a bit cynical, but that is the reason we are having this discussion; as wikia says they listen to us but refuse to do so. Scimatt16 01:40, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

(Resetting Indent)
Thank you, Wynthyst, for coming over directly to address our concerns.

I have to agree with your point, Scimatt; that the logo and background will be designated by Curse is a concern for me as well. I firmly believe that such aspects of a project should be a decision made by a project's community, and no one else. That said, I don't feel it is as bad as what Wikia has done in the past. Curse isn't forcing a new layout, nor is it as heavy-handed with regard to advertisements as Wikia. Even should a worse case scenario occur, even if Curse does not listen to the wiki community's concerns, we wouldn't be any worse off than we are now. That being said, a logo and background designed to compliment Darth Hater's new appearance could be a benefit. A lot can be accomplished by a simple sign of unity between projects.

I actually agree with not promoting our staff to admin positions should we make a move to the Curse project. If we were the ones looking to welcome a group of refugees from a rival project, we would likely hesitate to put those individuals in such positions immediately as well. Our admins earned their position by demonstrating their abilities and dedication to our work here. All of us were leaders within this community before we were promoted to our current role. There's no reason to think that we won't attain similar roles of leadership regardless of project that we work on.

Wynthyst was also able to confirm something several of us predicted: when Darth Hater's new appearance is debuted, that site will no longer support this project. It isn't really a surprise that this will occur, but it is nice to have it confirmed by a Curse staff member.

We should remember that the Curse project is not our only prospective home. Everyone should not only continue to post any questions they might have, but should also feel free to list new prospective homes for our community that they can think of. -- Heaven's Agent 02:00, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

Let me clarify my comments regarding the "design". All but 2 Curse wikis use the Vector skin. This is not going to change. The functionality of the wiki itself is not going to change. The design that will be implemented will be to integrate it more seamlessly with the new design of Darth Hater and will be totally css based. Users will have the option to use their own personal css files to make any changes they want individually. Examples I can give you are and I believe that it gives the sites a better sense of "partnership" if users "feel" like they are all part of the same community, rather than have the forum site using one design and the wiki using another. We will not be forcing any content design, (i.e. fixed width, or template restrictions). -- Wynthyst talk 03:13, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

I see no advantage in moving to WikiSWTOR and the Curse network, but I fail to see the necessity to leave Wikia either. That Darth Hater did not even answered our contacting attempt, not even to tell us what is going on makes me not more optimistic to join a network with them (like I said so many times before I prefer transparency). And what do we win by having one kind of restriction changed for another one?
I have a questing for Wynthyst. How will be foreign language SWTOR project be treated? That is for me the most important point should I decide to move with the project when we leave Wikia. So, are language links something that Curse has no Problem with? Could other language projects also move to the Curse network?
Then there is our partnership with the Wookieepedia, how is that going to work with the Curse network? Not to mention that Wookieepedia would still link here, so people might still check out this project here and even start working here when we all have gone to another project. - Drudenfusz(diplomacy) 08:33, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

*** - Drudenfusz 08:33, October 19, 2011 (UTC) said:***
“And what do we win by having one kind of restriction changed for another one?”
Drudenfusz hits the nail on the head. The commentary provided thus far has been very helpful, but no more so than this.
There seems to be a general sentiment that Wikia is too restrictive. But until Drudenfusz comment, this thread was dancing around the $64 question: How is the Curse wiki any less restrictive than the Wikia wiki? It may very well be less restrictive, and I would welcome any education I could get on why that may be the case. But so far, I haven't heard it.
Now, there may indeed be some notable advantages to moving to their wiki (better traffic, good people, established relationships, etc.). But those advantages are separate from the question of restrictiveness. If the limits of Wikia are still essentially in place under Curse, I fail to understand how a wholesale migration to that wiki satisfies the general frustrations of our group.
On a seperate note, I would like to ask the following: What are the other options? Being a novice, if someone could provide a few links to other wikis which should be on our radar for partnerships, I would be indebted. Thescale99 13:42, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

I've asked your question, and will let you know the response, Drudenfusz. That said, you're assuming much. There is no reason to believe that Wookieepedia will maintain its links here. That is a choice that will have to be made by the community at Wookieepedia. Additionally, this project will remain and yes, others will move in to work on it. That said, even in the unlikely case that a dedicated team takes over the running and maintenance of this site, I doubt they will be able to keep pace with our information should we move elsewhere. This only reason site is currently the most comprehensive TOR wiki available is that our community rocks. For some reason, we've hit on a mix of administrators and contributors that gels, and gets work done despite some considerable differences in opinion. If our community leaves, we'll be taking that with us to our new home.
I'm not worried about Darth Hater not responding to my contacts, and neither should you. Its likely the case that they simply haven't had the time to read the messages. Its currently the height of convention season. It has been for some time. Those with the authority to answer our questions are quite literally swamped with their duties. They're constantly traveling, constantly dealing with convention-born disease, and constantly preparing for the next trip. At the same time, they have to somehow balance this alongside their paying jobs and updates to their site. We were the unreasonable ones, to think that they would be able to get back to us in any timely matter. We should have contacted Curse directly in the first place.
We're going to face restrictions wherever we go, either dictated by our project host, or our budget and technical skill, or both. This is simply an unavoidable fact. However, we do have the freedom to determine what kind of restrictions we deal with. I see those that we would face at Curse to be much more palatable than what we currently have to stomach. I truly believe this would be true anywhere we might move. To be more precise, Curse supports fewer advertisements, and due to the project's license should not be able to ever implement text-based popup ads. We would have to give up some level of freedom with regard to logo and appearance, but nothing as drastic as having a new skin forced upon us with little warning. Additionally, many of the people I've been speaking with on the Curse network are Wikia refugees as well, that migrated to that network last year as a result of the Oasis/Wikia skin implementation. They understand our concerns and reasons for wanting to leave, and we can be sure, at the very least, that they respect these reasons. This could always change in the future, but for now Curse appears to recognize that a wiki project is only as good as the community that works on it, and supports their wiki communities accordingly.
There are several other options available, Scale. Some are other TOR projects, while others are other wiki hosts. Those that I'm aware of don't even compare to the Curse project, though. We could also consider self-hosting, though I don't think we're up to the monetary and technical requirements of that. That said, this is simply my opinion, and I'm not aware of all the available options. I'm not going to list any sites because, as I said, I feel those I'm aware of are insufficient for our needs. You should feel free, however, to do some research, and recommend several to look into. -- Heaven's Agent 13:58, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

Heaven, thanks for the terrific responce. You did a great job answering my two questions (re: restrictions at one site vs. another, and re: other options for hosting). Keen insight, and much appreciated.
Based off of what I've read, I would vote for and support the idea of migrating over to Curse - consider my vote cast, as it were! Thescale99 16:02, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

I've got some responses for you, Drudenfusz. Though the preference, understandably, would be to not link to Wikia at all, we would be able to link to Wikia projects that do not compete with a Curse project; we would be able to continue providing links to Wookieepedia for information beyond the scope of the Old Republic era.
I don't believe we would be able to continue supporting the foreign language projects on the Wikia network; because these projects are dedicated to the same topic as WikiSWTOR, they are essentially rival wikis, regardless of the language they might be written in. If there is a desire to move the foreign language projects to the Curse network, that might be possible. Curse generally allows wiki communities the opportunity to "earn" alternate language subdomains by translating a certain amount of articles into that language. Since these translations already exist on this network, simply importing this information to Curse could be an option. If you're interested, I could ask about that further. -- Heaven's Agent 20:01, October 20, 2011 (UTC)

(Resetting Indent)
Thanks for clearing up my issues. Like I already said I would prefer to stay. For me a move to the Curse network looks like to much trouble, and then still having some kind of restriction is it just not worth doing. But before I make my final decision I would also like to hear (read) what Darth Stefan from the Netherlands SWTOR Wiki is thinking about it. But that I have to move if we would join the Curse network is something I am not too happy about (would have preferred to see how it works out before making a decision on moving the German SWTOR Wiki, because like I said, I have no problem with Wikia, and I have not a single one user on the German project who is complaining about Wikia). - Drudenfusz(diplomacy) 15:41, October 21, 2011 (UTC)

If you would prefer to stay on Wikia for the moment, and maybe revisit a move to the Curse network sometime later, I imagine that would be fine as well. This is in no way a one-time deal. If those who remain decide in the future that they want to join those of us who are moving on, wherever we go, they would be welcome. In the specific case of the Curse project, to quote Wynthyst, WikiSWTOR welcomes "any and all SWTOR enthusiasts to contribute and participate". -- Heaven's Agent 15:54, October 21, 2011 (UTC)

A note from Wikia


I'm sorry you are thinking of leaving Wikia. I understand the concerns about changes here, but I hope you'll bear with us while we work on the test version of message wall and also work through the feedback we've had so far. We've already changed the release plan based on the community’s feedback: the feature will now be going in to Wikia Labs and then have another round of assessment before any decisions are made on a wider release.

But, when all is said and done, we respect your right to edit where you choose. And we'll work with the community to make things as smooth as possible whether you choose to stay or go.

One thing you will need to consider is the wiki's license. From comments on the other page about this, I think you are aware of the benefits and limitations of the Creative Commons licensing. Generally speaking, you would not be able to copy content from this wiki to a CC-by-sa-nc one. However, you always remain the copyright holder of anything you create on Wikia. So if you are the sole author, you are able to dual-license it and use it there.

As said elsewhere, if the community left this wiki it would remain open. If necessary, someone new would be able to adopt and revive it, and of course it could also be continued by anyone who decided to stay. Over the years we've developed some guidelines of what is and isn't OK during a move - for example, a main page notice to point to a page about the move is OK, but would be taken down once the move is done. I can discuss the guidelines with you all in detail, if and when needed.

If you have other questions, please let me know. I'm available here or in chat. It would be best to keep questions about Message Wall over on Central - we don't want any of the conversation to get missed or lost, so we are asking that it stays on the blogs there. But anything else I can help with I will. -- sannse WikiaStaff.png (help forum | blog) 00:30, October 27, 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for stopping by to comment, Sannse. I'm afraid that, for some of us at least, the message wall is simple the most recent of what appears to be a behavioral trend. I think at this point none of us considering a move begrudge Wikia's actions, be they current or past; Wikia is free to take the network in any direction desired. Many of us simply feel these decisions are running counter to our goals as a project. We would have liked to have had them addressed by Wikia, rather than consider leaving, but it has been made clear there will be no special considerations made in these matters; the width of the text area will not be increased, nor is there any way to ensure that our project will not suffer aggressive advertising campaigns that completely alter the wiki's appearance. We have no way of addressing reports of eyestrain and fatigue caused by the Wikia skin, and we cannot change the default skin in order to rectify such issues as they arise among our visitors.
These and other changes have a negative impact on this project within the very game community we seek to support, and as a result of Wikia policies we are unable to address these issues when members of that community inquire as to why. The very changes Wikia is making, changes intended to improve the network, are having an opposite effect here; the changes being made are rendering us unable to function competitively against rival wiki projects. We're only the most recent MMORPG project to realize this. Many game communities have supported non-Wikia projects for these very reasons, and despite the greater content hosted here we are already falling behind our rivals. Darth Hater, our most important non-Wikia supporter, will cease that support within the coming months. The vast majority of guild websites link to rival projects, rather than here.
I have many good memories from my time on the Wikia network. Wikia projects are where I first got started as a wiki editor. I've been a contributor to more than half a dozen Wikia projects, many of those in the capacity of project staff. It is the result of these memories, however, that I first broached the topic of leaving the network some weeks back; I've hesitated to leave for a while now, and in that time I've bid farewell to one wiki community, as I stayed when they left the network. I've had two projects that I served as an administrator abandoned by the game communities we sought to support. It was only after comments from several members of this community that I realized why. MMORPG projects are a unique species of wiki. They have special needs, and ultimately have to answer to the community of the game they seek to document above all else. These needs, these demands, fly in direct opposition to what Wikia allows us to do. We simply cannot function in the new environment Wikia is creating. I hope that you and the rest of the Wikia staff realize this, Sannse; it's clear that Wikia is pursuing a specific vision for its future, and I hope you attain your goals. After much consideration, however, I'm conviced this future has no place for MMORPG projects. -- Heaven's Agent 04:36, October 27, 2011 (UTC)

Hi Heaven's Agent. I'll address what I see as the most important part first: We have had no complaints of eyestrain or fatigue from the Wikia skin since early in it's development. We changed the default size and colour of the font after those early reports, which seemed to fix the problem. This wiki has a very high level of transparency in the content area, which I personally find a bit uncomfortable to read, but that is a community choice. If it's causing distress or fatigue, I would strongly suggest you change it.
On ads, I understand that those will always be an issue for some. We try to get the right balance of ads (for example, keeping most ads out of the sight of people logged in) but they are the way we have chosen to support the service, so are necessary. You are right that the presence of ads, and the fixed width, are things we can't change. However, if there are specific ads that bother you, it is sometimes possible for us to adjust things. It depends very much on what has been agreed and what commitments we have made, but we have been able to make changes when communities have asked us in the past.
To answer your other main point: I don't agree that anything we are doing makes MMPOG based wikis less viable on Wikia. Looking at the stats for this wiki: pageviews have gone from 77,873 a month before the skin change, to 933,270 for the last month. Active editors, content edits, number of articles, and other stats have also gone up. Of course, I'm not saying that the skin change is the cause of this :) your hard work built up the wiki. But it's certainly clear that the wiki isn't in decline and is functioning well. This is still a place where you can write and organize content, and that's not going to change.
I see that this wiki has chosen to turn on six of the nine features available in Wiki Features. My hope is that we will continue to add more features there, and allow admins more options to select the tool-set that matches their topic. Of course some things will still be default but, for example, Message Wall will be going in to Labs before any wider release, and the long-term release plan is being re-assessed after it's spent time in Labs.
But I know from experience that I'm not likely to change your mind. I accept that, and want to try and focus on making sure the transition is as smooth as possible. I would be grateful for your help in working out how we can do that, and how we can help anyone who wants to stay (or a future community that might grow) to take over without problems. Thanks -- sannse WikiaStaff.png (help forum | blog) 23:42, October 27, 2011 (UTC)

Sennse, is their no leeway at at all for the implementation of the message wall? Considering the amount of people who are opposed to it. For me the loss of faith in Wikia was only achieve though seeming ignoring what the masses of communities are saying, time and again. Whist to this day I still vastly prefer Monnico to Oasis, the greatest and most important reason being the smaller amount of actual content space, I do currently use Oasis, as I find monobook too dated. and some of the functions I must admit to make editing far easier - especially for new editors.
I personally want what is best for the community, and the wiki as a whole, as such my personal preference will take a second place to the majority opinion on the decision on whether to move or not. Alexsau1991 (talk page) 20px 00:10, October 28, 2011 (UTC)

I assure you, Sannse, the Wikia skin still causes eye strain. We just realized there's no point in continuing to bring it up, due to Wikia's complete dismissal of our claims; it became apparent that our only options were to leave the network or set our preferences to monobook view.
I must ask why you are unwilling to change the fixed width? Wikia did so before, for WoWWiki. The reasons given, by you, for this were twofold: a wider text space allowed WoWWiki to continue using their tables, and it was claimed that the project had fewer visitors that used a 1024 resolution than the rest of the network. Now, like WoWWiki we will need to make use of extensive tables to fully document The Old Republic. Additionally, the developers of the game are targeting the same community as WoW. If TOR is successful in this effort, the same users that once visited WoWWiki will visit here; if the game is successful, the reasons given for the increased text space on WoWWiki will also apply on this project. The logic doesn't add up; why can't we have a wider text area, exactly?
From Wikia's perspective, this project may be doing well. This does not reflect our perspective, however, nor the perspective of the game's community. You're basing your judgement of this project's success on measured data but, as I mentioned, we have to answer to the game's community above all else. If we are unable to address their concerns, if we are unable to present content in as understandable a way as our competition, we are faltering regardless of what Wikia's internal numbers might say. This is a place where we can write and organize content, so long as we constrain our efforts as Wikia dictates. If we want to deviate from these dictates, we can't. If we need to deviate from these dictates, we can't. Why isn't Wikia's focus on building and growing its wiki communities? Why doesn't Wikia recognize that every project has unique needs that have to be addressed if they are to thrive?
You are right about one thing: you are unlikely to change my mind. I've witnessed years of abuse and mismanagement by Wikia staff. I've been blatantly lied to on several occasions. I've been told that my concerns are imagined and/or inconsequential. I've witnessed Wikia's willingness to welcome aggressive advertisement campaigns directed at the efforts of projects' communities. I've seen good wikis crippled by changes forced upon them by Wikia staff, all in the name of bettering the network. That said, none of these reasons are why I'm leaving; I lost any respect I had for Wikia some time ago, but I stayed to support the communities I was a part of. Now, however, it's become clear that Wikia is taking the network in a direction that conflicts with encyclopedic projects. Wikia is free to make such changes, but in the process our ability to provide for the needs of this community are restricted, and in some instances eliminated entirely. I still intend to support this community, but based on Wikia's actions I've come to believe the best method of doing this is to ensure a well-developed home exists for this project's contributors outside the Wikia network. -- Heaven's Agent 01:45, October 28, 2011 (UTC)

First, I am glad that Sannse takes some time to address our problems here, even through it might not lead to a solution, since Heaven is already determined to leave (I can understand his reasoning, but I am myself not so determined to leave as well). It seems that my person is the only admin who really would like to stay, and should that happen I am glad to hear that if there would ever be a problem with the advertisement Wikia would listen and help to work something out (hope that it is not an empty promise).
So far none of the changes had really bothered me, and it is good that Wikia takes at moment more time before implementing things (I think the transition from Monaco to Oasis was to sudden, which caused most of the problems, and left too many with the feeling that Wikia doesn't care for the users, which was not entirely wrong).
On topic: I am still not convinced that Curse is the right place for us (or at least for me), so if I have to move somewhere else, I would prefer that it is not be the curse network. And this wiki here might become much more popular around the release of the game, because it would be possible that our wiki could become a featured wiki by then, so that users from many other wikis in the Wikia network might join us here. - Drudenfusz(diplomacy) 17:09, October 28, 2011 (UTC)

Druden, i totally agree with you that Heaven is determined to move. In fact, he has already moved several templates from here, to the other wiki. I have changed my mind (again) and i would prefer to stay then move. I believe that Heaven was influencing us and really hyping up the cons of Wikia. He was the one that originally suggested we move and seems to be the only person fully for it. I also found it hypocritical that he said he did not want competition among the wiki's which is exactly what he is helping to create. I also appreciate that Wikia has come to us and talked to us. Scimatt16 19:49, October 28, 2011 (UTC)

I too appreciate that Wikia has come to talk to us, and I would prefer we heard them out fully, let them answer our questions, and address the issues before jumping the gun and insisting that what ever they say we're not open to negotiation. Alexsau1991 (talk page) 20px 20:35, October 28, 2011 (UTC)

Alexsau1991 : yes, there is a possibility of leeway. As I said above, we've changed the release plan since the initial announcement. Instead of going straight to a full release to all wikis, we are going to put message wall in Labs (where admins will be able to turn it on and off). Once it's been in labs for a while, we are going decide on the future release plan – including how optional it will be.
Heaven's Agent : I can honestly say I am confused about your claim of eye strain. There is nothing that is different between Wikia and other sites that might possibly have that effect (other than themeing, which is under your control.) I think there may have been an issue with the default text size and colour in the first version of the skin, which is why we changed that.
Yes, we allowed WoWWiki a wider skin based on their size and some other factors (as you mentioned). This didn't work well. The variation has been a problem for us in terms of designing and maintaining the site. So it's not something we want to expand to other wikis.
On the stats... there's really not much I can say there. The stats speak for themselves – if this wiki were faltering, there would not be so many more people reading, editing, and enjoying the site. Wikia's focus most certainly is in building and growing every community here. And the Wikia Features controls are part of us working to make sure that each wiki has what it uniquely needs (something I'm very keen on seeing grow!)
For the rest, I obviously disagree with your perspective in many respects, but understand that you have made your decision. I wish you well for the future.
Drudenfusz: It's not an empty promise :) although as I said above, what we can do does depend on commitments we've made to the advertisers. It also depends on the request of course: “no ads” I can't do – sorry! ;)
Alexsau1991 (again): Let me know what other questions you have, I'll do my best to answer -- sannse WikiaStaff.png (help forum | blog) 20:43, October 28, 2011 (UTC)

As I stated before, the decision to stay or go is a personal one. When I first brought this up I made sure to state that I no longer had any faith in Wikia. At the time, however, I didn't even know if I was going to leave; it was only as the conversation progressed that I cam to that conclusion. My goal was not to influence anyone's decision, but to simply inform and offer an alternative to what I saw as a pressing concern.
I have begun work on the Curse project; I've decided that for me, a move from Wikia is the right thing to do. This allows me to understand that project's goals, and help bring that project's standards up to the level this community has come to expect. This includes removal of any content stolen from other sites; I've begun to rewrite several articles that drew their content from Wookieepedia and the official web page, and have begun applying licensing and citation templates on the project. I have introduced several templates used here in my efforts to accomplish this, but have limited this to templates that are either not original to this project or something that I personally designed. Everyone here knows how important it is to me that usage laws be followed to the letter, how I've stressed that content creators and copyright owners be respected above what the law requires. This is something I will continue to stress on the Curse project.
As I mentioned last night, my intent is to create a home for our community outside the Wikia network for any of us who desire to leave, whether that decision to leave be made now or in the future. Unless we all move, this will unfortunately result in a stronger rival project. This is unavoidable, and should not come as a surprise. I wish it were not the case, but we knew from the start that it would be unlikely for everyone to come to the same conclusion. This project will still exist for those who wish to remain, but I intend to help establish an alternate for those who no longer desire to work on the Wikia network, for whatever reason. Ultimately, I have to follow the course of action I believe is best, for myself and this community. I expect everyone else to draw their own conclusions, and act on them accordingly.
I agree that the Curse network may not be an ideal alternative for those of us who decide to leave, Drudenfusz, but it does appear to be the best option available at the moment. It's rough, and currently lacks much besides a foundation and basic framework of content. That foundation is a sturdy one, though, and the potential to become a great project does exist there. My goal is to help ensure that potential is realized. I hold a lot of respect for the members of this community, and that is not something that will change. I hope that this respect is something we can all continue to share, regardless of the individual choices made in this matter. -- Heaven's Agent 20:55, October 28, 2011 (UTC)

Hi everyone! I just wanted to say that it's been a pleasure to work with you here on this wiki, which was actually the first wiki I worked on when I started working for Wikia. Currently, I am the Wiki Team Lead at Curse, and while I don't expect that to convince any of you to join Curse's just because of that, I'll gladly continue to work with any of you that do decide to become part of our community, which now also includes Darth Hater, whose mighty database will soon be closely integrated with our wiki.

Whatever the case, I hope we'll all have a blast playing Star Wars: The Old Republic less than a month from now. Ausir(talk) 23:49, November 22, 2011 (UTC)

I think that it is very inappropriate to post on a dead forum about your credentials (on another wiki) and other unimportant information to try and get people to move from our project to your's; but due to the fact that I appreciate transparency, I will not delete it. Anyways I wish you the best in game. Scimatt16 01:34, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

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